KutūhalasālāsuttaSutta The Debating Hall
Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi.Then Vacchagotta the wanderer went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him.
Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
sāraṇīyaṁ → sārāṇīyaṁ (bj, sya-all, pts)After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One,
“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi:
nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ → nānātitthiya samaṇabrāhmaṇānaparibbājakānaṁ (bj) | nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ → aññatitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇaparibbājakānaṁ kutuhalasālāyaṁ (sya-all) | samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ → samaṇabrāhmaṇāparibbājakānam kutūhalasālāyam (pts) | nānātitthiya → nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājikānaṁ (bj: machasaṁ); aññatitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ (bj: syā) | nānātitthiyānaṁ → S3 nāntā-; B1-2 añña- (pts note)“Master Gotama, a few days ago a large number of contemplatives, brahmans, and wanderers of various sects were sitting together in the Debating Hall when this conversation arose among them:
‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
yasassī → yasassi (bj) | pūraṇo → purāṇo (bj: sī.pævi, sī.pavi)‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa—the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people—
Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti → kālakataṁ uppattīsu vyākaroti (bj) | kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (sya-all) | uppattīsu → uppattīsu (bj: machasaṁ, syā) | pi → Missing in B1-2; S3 sā pi. (pts note) | upapattīsu → S1-3 uppattīsu here and further on (pts note)describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
upapanno → uppanno (bj) | upapannoti yopissa → uppannoti yo pissa (bj) | uppanno → uppanno (bj: sī.pævi, sī.pavi) | upapannoti → S1 has --pe-- and S3 asuama instead of the first asu . . . upapanno, and S1-3 have uppanno instead of upapanno always (pts note)“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti → kālakataṁ uppattīsu vyākaroti (bj) | kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (sya-all) | yo → so (bj: sī.pævi, sī.pavi) | Yo → S1-3 so (pts note)Even when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, Pūraṇa Kassapa describes him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
upapanno → uppanno (bj) | upapannoti → uppannoti (bj)“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe…“‘This Makkhali Gosāla…
ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe…
nāṭaputto → nātaputto (bj) | nātaputto → nāṭaputto (bj: machasaṁ, syā) | Nigaṇṭho → B2 nigandho (pts note) | pe → S1-3 nāta- (pts note)This Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta…
ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe…
sañcayo → sañjayo (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed) | belaṭṭhaputto → bellaṭṭhiputto (bj) | sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto → sañjayo bellaṭṭhiputto (bj, pts) | bellaṭṭhiputto → belaṭṭha (bj: machasaṁ, syā) | sañcayo → sañjayo (cck: sī. syā. kaṁ. pī.) | Sañjayo → B1 sañcayo; B2 sañjeyyo (pts note) | Belaṭṭhiputto → B1-2 celaddha (pts note)This Sañjaya Velaṭṭhaputta…
ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe…
pakudho → pakuddho (pts1ed) | kaccāno → kaccāyano (bj, pts1ed) | pakudho kaccāno → pakuddho kaccāyano (pts) | kaccāyano → pakudho (bj: PTS) | pakudho → pakuddho (cck: pī.) | Kaccāyano → B1-2 kaccāno (pts note)This Pakudha Kaccāna…
ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
Kesakambalo → S3 -kambali (pts note)This Ajita Kesakambala—the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people—
Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (bj) | kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu → kālakataṁ uppattīsu (sya-all)describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (bj, sya-all) | yopissa → yo ca khvassa (pts) | byākaroti → na vyākaroti (pts) | Yo → S1-3 so (pts note) | paramapuriso → Missing in S1-3 (pts note)Even when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, Ajita Kesakambala describes him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
ti → The first asu- -panno is missing in S1; S3 adds to it ti and only asu amutra (pts note)“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.“This contemplative Gotama—the leader of a community, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, honored and famous, esteemed as holy by the mass of people—
Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti:
kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (bj, sya-all)describes a disciple who has died and passed on in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti:
Yopissa → yo ca khvassa (pts1ed) | tañca → tampi (bj) | kālaṅkataṁ → kālakataṁ (bj) | yopissa → yo ca khvassa (sya-all) | Yopissa → yo ca khvassa (cck: pī.) | khvassa → S1 so ca khossa; S3 so pissa (pts note) | pi → S1, B1 tañca; B2 has || pa || instead of paramapuriso- -vyākaroti (pts note) | na → In S1-3 only (pts note)But when the disciple is an ultimate person, a foremost person, attained to the foremost attainment, the contemplative Gotama does not describe him, when he has died and passed on, in terms of places of rebirth:
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.“That one is reborn there; that one is reborn there.”
Api ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti:
byākaroti acchecchi → vyākaroti acchejji (pts)Instead, he describes him thus:
“acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā”’ti.
acchecchi → acchejji (sya-all) | vivattayi → vāvattayi (bj: aññatra) | Acchejji → S3 acchecchi; S1 accheccha (pts note)“He has cut through craving, severed the fetter, and by rightly breaking through conceit has made an end of suffering & stress.”’
Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā:“So I was simply befuddled. I was uncertain:
‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?
abhiññeyyoti alañhi → abhiññeyyo alaṁ hi (bj) | kathaṁ → kathañhi (sya-all, pts) | dhammo abhiññeyyoti → dhammābhiññeyyāti (pts) | kathannāma → kathañhi nāma (bj: syā, PTS) | nāma → kathañhi nāma (cck: syā. kaṁ. pī. ka.); kathaṁ kathaṁ nāma (cck: chakkaṅguttare pañcamavagge dutiyasutte) | abhiññeyyo’’’ti → dhammābhiññeyyāti (cck: pī. ka.); dhammo… aññeyyo (cck: chakkaṅguttare) | Kathañhi → S1-3 omit hi (pts note) | dhammābhiññeyyāti → B2 dhammā abhi-; S1-3 dhammo aññeyyoti (pts note)How is the teaching of Gotama the contemplative to be understood?”
“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ.“Of course you are befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you are uncertain.
Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.
kaṅkhanīye → kaṅkhāniye (sya-all) | kaṅkhaniye → B1-2 kaṅkhāniye (pts note)When there is a reason for befuddlement in you, uncertainty arises.
Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa.
saupādānassa khvāhaṁ → sa upādānassa khohaṁ (bj) | paññāpemi → paññapemi (sya-all) | khvāham → S1-3 khohaṁ (pts note) | paññāpemi → B1-2 pañña- always (pts note)I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance.
Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno;Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance,
evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.
khvāhaṁ → khohaṁ (bj) | paññāpemi → paññapemi (sya-all) | anupādānassāti yasmiṁ → anupādānassā ti yasmim pana (pts)even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance.”
“Yasmiṁ, bho gotama, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?
yasmiṁ → yasmiṁ pana (bj) | imassa → imissā (sya-all) | paññāpetīti → paññapetīti (sya-all) | imassa → imissa (bj: syā) | pana → Missing in B1-2 (pts note)“But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?”
“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi.
kho → (bj) | paññāpemi vāto hissa → vadāmi vātohissa (bj) | dūrampi → dūraṁ (sya-all) | vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi → vātupādānaṁ paññapemi (sya-all) | tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi → tam ahaṁ vātupādānam vadāmi (pts) | vadāmi → paññāpemi (bj: syā, machasaṁ) | kho → Missing in S1-3 (pts note) | acci → B2 acchi (pts note) | vadāmi → B1-2 paññapemi (pts note)“Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained,
Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.for the wind is its sustenance at that time.”
“Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī”ti?
anupapanno → anuppanno (bj) | paññāpetīti → paññāpeti (bj); paññapetīti (sya-all) | yasmiñca pana → yasmiṁ (sya-all) | kāyaṁ anupapanno → kāyam anuppanno (pts) | anuppanno → anuppanno (bj: sī.pævi, sī.pavi) | pana → S1-3 omit ca pana (pts note) | anuppanno → The true reading ought to be anuppatto; B1-2 have anupapanno (pts note)“And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?”
“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi.
anupapanno → anuppanno (bj) | taṇhūpādānaṁ → taṇhupādānaṁ (sya-all) | aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno → aññataram kāyam anuppanno (pts) | tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ → tam ahaṁ taṇhupādānaṁ (pts) | taṇhupādānaṁ → B2 takkhupādānaṁ (pts note)“Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained,
Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.
hotī”ti → hotīti …pe… (mr) | hotīti navamaṁ → hotī tī (pts) | hotī’’ti → hotīti…pe… (cck: ka.) | hissa → S1-3 samaṅgissa (pts note)for craving is its sustenance at that time.”
